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In this episode of the Trial Lawyer Nation podcast, Michael sits down with his Director of Marketing and Business Development Delisi Friday for a raw, honest conversation about his (very) recent jury trial win where the number was not what he wanted.
“When you try hard cases, you don’t always get what you want.” – Michael Cowen
They begin the podcast episode with the facts of the case. They were in federal court in Laredo, Texas, a community with a huge trucking and logistics industry. Their client was rear-ended by a truck at only 5 miles an hour. Initially, the client was diagnosed with only soft tissue damage, but later discovered a herniated disc that required surgery. This was argued by the defense to be a pre-existing condition, which the jury ultimately agreed with, only awarding enough money to cover the medical bills before the surgery.
As Michael explains the largest offer they received was only $25,000 during the trial, when the jury verdict was $80,000, Delisi asks Michael why he feels this is a loss. He breaks it down into 2 reasons: 1) he doesn’t feel the client is materially better off because they went to trial, and 2) he believes the case is worth a lot more than the result.
With that being said, he recognizes the challenges he was up against – low property damage and medical treatment gaps. When you try cases like this, he argues you’re not going to win them all. He tried the case well and gave it everything he had, but it didn’t go his way this time. He compares this to the Bengals, a great football team, losing the Super Bowl this year. At the end of the day, they’re still a great team.
“You’re not always going to get a home run every time you get up to bat.” – Michael Cowen
One of the biggest hurdles in this case was the low property damage. Delisi asks Michael about the challenges of them, and what he does to overcome them. Michael emphasizes that low PD cases are always a challenge because they fail the “oh shit!” test. When you have a picture of a vehicle after the wreck that causes people who see it to say, “oh shit, are they okay?” it’s much easier to try than when you don’t have that initial reaction.
Michael shares the strategy he used in this voir dire, which acknowledged both potential outcomes of a wreck – where the vehicle can look really bad but the person is okay, and where the vehicle can look almost completely fine but the person is very injured.
Delisi then asks Michael about his mindset going into this trial. Michael reiterates, as he has in many past episodes, his mantra for trial – the judge and the jury want to do the right thing, and he’s going to have fun (which he did). But as Delisi asks him why he didn’t want to go talk to the jury after the verdict was read, he says he’s just not there yet. He’s also not sure if it would have been helpful, given both his mindset and the gut feeling he believes the jurors made their decision off of. But even after this experience – he still trusts the jury and will continue to do so for his future trials.
“It feels like I asked someone on a date, they said no, and then I’m supposed to call them and ask why they didn’t want to go out with me.” – Michael Cowen
Changing the tone, Delisi asks Michael what he thinks went well with the trial. He shares how they ran a fast, smooth trial, he felt very comfortable and got to use two “new toys”, a King flip chart and a magnetic white board with cardboard vehicles , which he thinks were highly effective for the cost. He felt good about the cross-examination of their experts and the witnesses they decided to put on. He also explains how the client is a Spanish-speaker, along with most of the witnesses, the challenges that came with this, and how they overcame them.
This leads to Delisi asking about the two associate attorneys from their firm Michael tried the case with, and what takeaways he thinks they had. Michael shares that he had them each take 2 witnesses, which they both did very well. And while he admits it’s not as fun as doing it all yourself his firm takes pride in training and this truly is the best way to learn.
Delisi then asks the question on everyone’s mind – why is Michael Cowen trying a low property damage case? He explains how Malorie Peacock, his partner, is out on maternity leave, and he didn’t think it would be fair to the client or the referral partner to have two associates with less experience be the ones to try it themselves. He was also excited to try a case in a courtroom, even though low property damage cases aren’t cases he plans to take on in the future.
Circling back to mindset, Delisi wants to know more about why Michael was in such a good headspace going into this trial. He cites the work he has been doing on mindset and acknowledging he doesn’t have control over what the jury’s going to do. Even the best home run hitters in baseball strike out, but as Delisi playfully quips “I’m proud you got on base.”
Before wrapping the episode, Michael adds one more aspect of this case that made it tough – the fact that he didn’t have a “villain.” The driver admitted it was his fault, the defense lawyers were reasonable, the company didn’t train much (which is not the custom in this venue). It’s hard to get the jury to give you money when your client’s just hurt – there needs to be a villain. But sometimes, it’s really just a crash in a parking lot.
Ending on a heartfelt note, Delisi praises Michael’s courage and honesty for recording this episode only one day after the verdict was read and openly sharing this on the podcast. Even after this, Michael adamantly encourages everyone listening to get out there and try cases, even if they don’t always go the way you hope they do.
“If you can keep swinging, you’re going to hit something. So get out there and swing.” – Michael Cowen
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115 – Malorie Peacock – How to Get Compelling Testimony From Treating Doctors
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Getting credible testimony from treating doctors can make or break your case. In this episode, Michael and Malorie are sharing their strategies to get powerful testimony from treating doctors, work through common challenges, and help build your case.
While the personal knowledge of the treating physician establishes significantly more credibility than a hired expert, it’s imperative the doctor communicates well and speaks in a way the jury can understand — without all of the medical jargon.
Remember: treating doctors aren’t professional testifiers. The lawyer needs to ensure that the treating doctor is prepared to give efficient, compelling testimony. You’re the guide who’s questions will lead the doctor along the trail of your strategy, and avoid getting stuck in the weeds of mundane details.
Malorie’s strategies to guide the story include magic words and visuals. Magic words or questions ensure you get what you need from the witness and end up with valuable testimony. Visuals (like diagrams, animations, or demonstrations) can help the jury visualize the story — as long as your visuals are relevant to your trial strategy. To wrap everything up, Malorie suggests you leave the jury with the major takeaway from your witness…just make sure it connects to the next part of your case.
Tune in to episode 115 as Michael and Malorie discuss strategies and best practices for working with treating doctors, the do’s and don’ts of getting valuable testimony, preparing the witness, and utilizing their testimony to build a compelling story for the jury.
Featured Guest
Name: Malorie J. Peacock
About: Malorie J. Peacock is a Partner at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock. She was born and raised in San Antonio, Texas and received her J.D. from the University of Houston Law Center. During her time with Cowen Rodriguez Peacock, Malorie has worked on numerous commercial vehicle, trucking, and wrongful death cases. Malorie brings close attention to detail, commitment to finding safety issues and areas of neglect, continued utilization of technology and cutting-edge visuals in cases, along with a sincere passion to help those who have been hurt, to each and every case.
Company: Cowen Rodriguez Peacock
Connect: LinkedIn
Key Points
Top takeaways from this episode
- Testimony from treating doctors can be crucial for a win. A treating doctor can testify from a place of personal knowledge, showing the jury what happened from a medical perspective. They have more credibility than someone you might hire, and because of their longer history with the client, they’re harder to cross-examine.
- Bringing in treating doctors has its share of challenges. Although treating doctors can be critical for a case, there are often challenges when bringing them in to testify. Doctors speak their own language; they often use medical jargon that the average person won’t understand. So, if you want to work through these challenges, you need to make sure your treating doctor is using colloquial language and is a great communicator.
- You should think about your case from a storytelling perspective. It can be easy for a treating doctor to get into every detail of the medical procedure, condition, or patient visit. As a lawyer, you want to guide the treating doctor and make sure they stay on track, only sharing details that are relevant to your case strategy. Be careful not to be leading or argumentative, but build your story with key components and questions that make the testimony understandable.
Episode Highlights
[01:59] Events for attorneys: Michael Cowen talks about upcoming events for lawyers put on by top organizations including the Academy of Truck Accident Attorneys and Trial Lawyers University.
[03:07] Getting testimony from treating doctors: Apart from making sure you have a clear appellate record, your doctor’s testimony is a critical component of the story you’re telling to the jury. However, there are some challenges with getting treating doctors to give coherent, clear testimony.
[09:19] Should witnesses be live or on video? Malorie Peacock explains the benefits of having a live witness compared to someone on video. She also shares why a live witness can be a bigger risk.
[10:59] Compelling treating doctor direct examinations: Malorie talks about how lawyers can introduce witnesses in an efficient way — and why it’s important to build trust with the doctors so their testimonial is straight to the point.
[16:12] Dealing with questioning: Malorie and Michael discuss how to deal with accusatory questions that frame the witness as being in some sort of collusion with the lawyer.
[19:38] Magic words and questions: You don’t have to use magic words or phrases in trial, however, Malorie shares how they could help you and why it never hurts to use them.
[24:37] Showing a doctor’s work without going overboard: You want to prove a doctor’s credibility and show their work. But you don’t want to go overboard and have them share the entire chart. Malorie and Michael share their strategies for finding the middle ground while presenting the necessary information.
[29:23] Degeneration — the dreaded word: Lawyers, especially those in Texas, don’t have to run away from the concept of degeneration. A preexisting condition is something that the jury can accept and move forward from; just because someone had a broken arm before doesn’t mean they can’t break their other arm.
[33:11] Using visuals with treating doctors: Malorie and Michael share their tips for using visuals in cases. They explain that visuals are crucial in clarifying a doctor’s point and helping the jury visually connect to the story — but you don’t want to use visuals that aren’t relevant to your trial strategy.
[42:14] The end of a doctor’s testimony: To wrap everything up, you should ask your magic word questions and leave the jury with a takeaway that connects to the next part of your case (which will often be non-economic damages).
Connect with Trial Lawyer Nation
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In this popular and award-winning podcast for trial lawyers, noteworthy author, sought-after speaker, and renowned trial lawyer, Michael Cowen explores critical topics distinctive to the legal profession with some of the biggest names in the industry – specifically focused on developing extremely efficient law practices, securing a competitive edge in the industry, and wildly excelling in the courtroom.
Produced and Sponsored by LawPods.
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124 – Malorie Peacock – Why Focus Groups Matter and How To Make the Most of Them
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Focus groups can be a pertinent tool for complicated cases to get a sense of how ordinary people think about a case.
Malorie J. Peacock, Partner at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock, uses focus groups to gain an outside perspective on her cases.
“Sometimes you get so wrapped up in the minutiae of your case or some technical details, or you’ve learned the case so well that you think it’s obvious to everybody else,” she explains. “Having that outside perspective is a way to get feedback to make sure you’re not just buying your own bullshit.”
Host Michael Cowen joins in on the discussion with Malorie who recently returned from hosting a focus group for one of her upcoming cases. They share what they’ve learned about focus groups, why you should consider using them in your own cases, how to facilitate them, what you gain from them, and most importantly, how to learn from them to inform your cases.
The episode provides examples of how to use both concept and adversarial focus groups to achieve your objectives, sharing real-life case studies that both Michael and Malorie have seen play out first-hand.
Featured Guest
Name: Malorie J. Peacock
About: Malorie J. Peacock is Partner at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock. She was born and raised in San Antonio, Texas, and received her JD from the University of Houston Law Center. During her time with Cowen Rodriguez Peacock, Malorie has worked on numerous commercial vehicle, trucking, and wrongful death cases. Malorie brings close attention to detail, commitment to finding safety issues and areas of neglect, continued utilization of technology and cutting-edge visuals in cases, along with a sincere passion to help those who have been hurt, to each and every case.
Firm: Cowen Rodriguez Peacock
Connect: LinkedIn
Episode Highlights
[02:18] Focus groups, defined: Malorie explains that a focus group is simply a group of people who are not associated with your case that allow you to test your strategy and get feedback.
[05:29] Different ways to test: There are many different ways to employ focus groups to add value to your case. Malorie advises the most important thing is knowing the purpose of the focus group.
[09:38] Bringing out your competitive nature: Michael talks about how adversarial focus groups can help lawyers rehearse for their cases ahead of time while channeling their competitive sides.
[13:41] Focus groups are not predictive of the numbers: Malorie reviews all the different variables that can change between a focus group and a court case that affect the numbers in the final outcome.
[15:21] Expect the unexpected: Michael speaks to how certain rulings from judges or specific facts being presented can have a big impact on how a case proceeds.
[21:18] Emotional attachments can get in the way: Michael points out that if you’re feeling emotional about a case and can’t run the focus group from a neutral perspective it might be better to hire a third party facilitator.
[24:35] How to find people to participate: Several different channels can be used to recruit people for focus groups.
[25:32] The right way to use Facebook ads: Michael provides an overview on how to properly use Facebook ads to recruit participants while maintaining neutrality in the process.
[35:10] To record or not to record?: Michael and Malorie debate how they prefer to record and document focus groups along with the benefits of each method.
[45:48] Choosing the right people to present: Malorie advises on how to balance the skills and likeability of two people if you’re holding an adversarial focus group to get good information.
[53:41] Big Rig Boot Camp: Michael reminds listeners that registration is open for the Big Rig Boot Camp on June 16th in San Antonio, TX.
Connect with Trial Lawyer Nation
☑️ Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram & LinkedIn.
☑️ Subscribe to Trial Lawyer Nation on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and YouTube.
In this popular and award-winning podcast for trial lawyers, noteworthy author, sought-after speaker, and renowned trial lawyer, Michael Cowen explores critical topics distinctive to the legal profession with some of the biggest names in the industry – specifically focused on developing extremely efficient law practices, securing a competitive edge in the industry, and wildly excelling in the courtroom.
Produced and Sponsored by LawPods.
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117 – Isabella Santellan – How to Build a Referral-Based Practice
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When it comes to personal injury law, the client-firm relationship can be fairly transactional. Most clients aren’t talking about their personal injury cases with their network, and lawyers hope that their clients don’t get injured again and become repeat customers.
But when you have mostly transactional, single-case relationships with clients, how can you gain more business? If your personal injury clients aren’t telling their network about you, who will?
One of the most rewarding methods for gaining more business is referral marketing. Creating longstanding attorney referral relationships gives you a pipeline for more cases, helps you build a reputation, and keeps your firm top of mind in the industry. However, in order to succeed with referral-based marketing, you have to cultivate your relationships and think about what the other person wants.
According to Michael Cowen and the team at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock, you have to give back in order to grow your referral-based business. Take referring attorneys out to lunch or to an event that they would enjoy. Or, give them a gift that’s personalized (and doesn’t have your firm’s name or logo on it). However you decide to show gratitude to your referral partners, it’s important that you create a system to follow up, check in every now and then, and continue nurturing that relationship.
Above all, Michael says that it’s important to create a culture of sharing and respect and keep your promises with referring attorneys. You don’t have to take every case that comes your way, and you can’t guarantee the outcome of a case. You can, however, promise to work hard, keep clients informed, and honor the deal you made.
In episode 117, Isabella Santellan, the Marketing Assistant at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock, asks Michael Cowen all of the essential questions about building a referral-based business and tending to referral relationships. Listen to this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation to hear Michael’s advice on building a referral network and nurturing relationships, turning down referral cases, and simplifying the referral process for your firm.
Featured Guest
Name: Isabella Santellan
About: Isabella Santellan is the Marketing Assistant at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock. She was born and raised in San Antonio, TX and recently received her B.B.A in Management from the University of Texas at San Antonio. As the Marketing Assistant, Isabella runs the firm’s social media, helps plan events, and works to ensure they provide an unforgettable experience to everyone they work with. In her free time, Isabella enjoys traveling, golfing, and spending time with her family.
Company: Cowen Rodriguez Peacock
Connect: LinkedIn
Key Points
Top takeaways from this episode
- Start with the people you already know (and don’t be too picky about cases). It’s difficult to come out of law school and have the reputation and network needed to create a referral-based business. Michael Cowen suggests you get your foot in the door by being hungry, humble, and persistent. Take cases from those who are already in your network and expand your business from there.
- Give your referring attorneys what they want. It’s important to stay top of mind when you’re building a referral-based business. How do you do this? Michael says you need to give back to your referral partners. Take your referring attorneys to lunch or to an event that they might enjoy. You could also give them a call, send a handwritten thank you note, or give them a gift (without your firm’s name or logo on it). However you show gratitude, you have to do so with the other person in mind.
- Nurture your existing referrals. When trying to build a referral-based business, many firms make the mistake of moving on to new referrals without nurturing existing partnerships. But the key is to create longstanding relationships with attorney referrals. It’s much harder to convince someone new to send you the first case, and it’s more fruitful to put effort into the connections that are already sending business your way.
Episode Highlights
[02:40] The foundation of great attorney referral relationships: The key to establishing great referral relationships is nurturing your connections, setting expectations upfront, and making sure you stay top of mind.
[06:05] The three things a referring lawyer or co-counsel wants: Every referring lawyer or co-counsel wants as much money as possible, as quickly as possible, without client complaints. Michael Cowen breaks down the details of how to achieve this.
[07:27] How to keep a referring lawyer’s attention: Michael shares Cowen Rodriguez Peacock’s strategies for keeping a referring lawyer’s attention and making sure they choose you over competitors.
[09:07] Turning down a referral’s case: The number one step to respectfully turn down a referral’s case is to do it swiftly. It’s hard to say no, but it’s better than accepting a case that you’ll later regret. Michael also suggests directing a case to a different firm and offering a possible solution.
[12:00] What you can and can’t guarantee to a referring lawyer: You can’t guarantee the outcome of a case, but you can promise that you’ll work hard and keep the team informed about the details of a case.
[13:13] How a new attorney can build their referral network: Start with people you already know. From there, you can build out your network and run your business on referrals. Especially when starting out, you have to get your foot in the door — you can’t be too picky about cases until you build your reputation.
[18:30] Michael’s experience with referrals: Michael shares his advice for working with referring lawyers and developing your referral process. He also talks about the big mistakes he made early in his career and how you can avoid those same mistakes.
[25:32] Simplifying the referral process: The key to simplifying the process for referring attorneys is to remove the bottlenecks. If you’re busy, put them in contact with someone else on your team who can give them the time and attention they need. For Michael, getting clear on criteria for automatic ‘yeses’ and ‘nos’ can help simplify the process as well.
[26:51] Other methods to gain referrals: Michael explains how his seminar, Big Rig Boot Camp, and his podcast create a referral funnel and generate more business.
[30:43] What to do after you win the referral: It can be tempting to constantly look for new referrals, but Michael advises you to spend more time and effort on your existing referral relationships.
Connect with Trial Lawyer Nation
☑️ Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram & LinkedIn.
☑️ Subscribe to Trial Lawyer Nation on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube.
In this popular and award-winning podcast for trial lawyers, noteworthy author, sought-after speaker, and renowned trial lawyer, Michael Cowen explores critical topics distinctive to the legal profession with some of the biggest names in the industry – specifically focused on developing extremely efficient law practices, securing a competitive edge in the industry, and wildly excelling in the courtroom.
Produced and Sponsored by LawPods.
