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In this Trial Lawyer Nation podcast, Michael Cowen sits down with Cowen | Rodriguez | Peacock partner, Malorie Peacock, to answer the questions of our listeners. This show focuses on how to prove your client’s harms and losses at trial.
The first listener question is regarding the idea of whether 3X the medical bills is typically what you use to determine damages or does that only apply in certain cases? Michael recalls being taught the 3X “rule of thumb” back when he was first starting as a trial lawyer, but since then, no longer does for several reasons. First and foremost, times have changed along with insurance company practices. If an insurance company or defense attorney does start to talk to you about 3X medical bills, it’s likely because your case is worth a lot more than that. Instead, Michael focuses on what a jury might do when they look at each element of damage (pain, mental anguish, impairment, or whatever the measure of damage is in a particular state) individually and determine what they feel compelled to put in each blank. That, paired with what Michael calls “piss off factors” based on things the defense might do to compel a juror to give full justice for, becomes a number he’d like to keep as high as possible. Of course, he also takes into account whether his client is for some reason not likable or the defense is super likable, which can also affect the jury’s motivation in an adverse way for his case. Malorie also brings up another important note on the effects of jurors taking into consideration the percentage of fault even though they are instructed not to do so. To which Michael elaborates a little more on how to potentially work the messaging of that to the jury.
The next question by our listeners is how do you work up damages, especially in a smaller case that doesn’t warrant bringing in experts or producing lots of exhibits? Michael starts to answer this question by clarifying that experts generally do not help work up damages, but rather help to prove calculations on future medical expenses or a vocational loss. Having said that, with regard to the human and non-economic damages, he believes people who come in and talk about your client, how they were before, what they went through, and what they are like now can have the biggest impact. This also doesn’t cost any money toward the case. It does, however, take a lot of time in order to visit with these people to talk through what they know of the client before, during, and after, as well as collect photos or videos showing the client in a different state prior to suffering damages, etc. Michael discusses how this approach, even by taking the time to meet with people and learning your client’s story better, will make you more authentic in the courtroom which can have a profound impact on your case. Malorie sums this point up reminding us that all of our clients are more than just their injuries.
The next question they explore is regarding a wrongful death case without economic damages, which Malorie takes the reins on and starts with conveying just how hard it is to put a number on life when no amount of money will ever replace someone’s loved one. She goes on to elaborate that although you can do focus groups, they are not truly predictive. It will always boil down to the 12 jurors you get on any specific day in court who will ultimately put that number on a case. Michael adds that liability is what really tends to drive the number in wrongful death cases and it sometimes becomes very hard to have a conversation with the surviving family member(s) on the difference in the value of life versus the value of a case. He also shares how going to trial in a death case is extremely tough for the family as they relive one of the most painful events in their lives, which places a real responsibility on us as lawyers to make sure we are doing the right thing. Whether that means turning down an offer that is not sufficient to go to trial to fight for more and making an informed choice while understanding upfront the process and pain that will likely come with going through the details all over again. Malorie also describes the importance of knowing your client (a common theme throughout this episode) and understanding their goals, hopes, and struggles for their future to be able to help guide them through the conversation about money.
Proving grief is another topic Michael and Malorie explore with the belief from some jurors that everyone dies at some point. They both agree that there is a definite difference between dying when it’s time and dying when it’s not your time because of a tragic incident. Michael also points out the balancing act that occurs when you don’t want to “torture” your client and make them cry by bringing up all the pain and suffering they encounter now that their loved one is no longer here vs. focusing on the hopes that were and the plans for the future that have now changed because of the actions of someone else. He also points out that this is a good time to utilize experts like grief counselors and let them talk about the pain and suffering your client is, and will, experience due to the loss as well as the grieving process and the natural cycle of grieving to help paint an appropriate picture for the jury. They also give several other examples of ways to express the pain and loss without having to pull tears out of the surviving family members directly.
Michael and Malorie continue their abundance mentality by sharing so much great information in this episode on topics like when to submit and when not to submit a medical bill toward damages; avoiding the status quo and navigating a case to motivate a jury to give your client the justice they deserve; where do your client’s harms and losses fit into the greater story of the trial; an ideal “3 act” trial story through the juror’s eyes; how not to present your client’s harms and losses in a vacuum; how to get your client’s actual story (hint – it’s not what you might think); tips on utilizing psychodramatic methods; expediting the process of spending time with your client to understand their story; how Pareto’s Law can be applied to your docket; and so much more.
These Table Talk podcasts could not happen without the interaction and questions that are submitted by our listeners. We are eternally grateful for and encourage you to continue to send us your thoughts, ideas, and questions as we love sharing our experiences with all of you.
“Please note the TLN19 discount code mentioned in this show has now expired.”
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123 – Tom Kherkher – How Lawyers Can Make It Big on Social Media
Before opening his own firm after graduating from law school in 2018, Tom Kherkher didn’t have Facebook or Instagram. “I was the guy everybody made fun of because I didn’t have social media,” he remembers.
Flash forward four years and Tom — or AttorneyTom, as he’s known online — is one of the most recognizable lawyers on the internet. He’s accumulated 500 million minutes of watch time on Facebook and 270 million views on YouTube. And as one of the first attorneys to take advantage of TikTok, he’s been able to funnel viewers toward his other content, which has generated cases for his firm.
But social media, in his opinion, isn’t always all it’s cracked up to be. It takes a lot of time and dedication to gain an audience, and even with one as big as Tom’s, social media isn’t generating hundreds of new referrals.
“I would be really skeptical of anybody who is directly making money off of you, if they’re selling you this social media product,” he says. “I do think it is going to get only better as younger people get in the workplace and are the ones who need lawyers, but slow and steady wins the race.”
So how do you gain a big social media following and keep them engaged? Which platforms generate the most success, and how can we get the most out of those platforms? Tune into this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation as Tom and host Michael Cowen talk through these topics — and reveal some social media secrets.
Featured Guest
Name: Tom Kherkher
About: Tom Kherkher is the founding attorney of The Kherkher Law Firm and an associate attorney of Kherkher Garcia. He is doing what he loves every day – fighting against injustice.
After graduating from law school and passing the Texas bar, Tom immediately founded his own law firm in Houston, Texas to fight for people and bring them justice. At The Kherkher Law Firm, Tom and his staff work tirelessly and passionately to recover damages for individuals who have suffered from the negligence of others. Tom Kherkher is licensed to practice law in the U.S. Southern District of Texas and all courts of the State of Texas and Louisiana.
Company: The Kherkher Law Firm, PLLC and Kherkher Garcia, LLP
Connect: LinkedIn | Twitter | YouTube | TikTok | Facebook | Instagram
Episode Highlights
[01:16] The YouTube lawyer: Meet Tom Kherkher, one of the top attorneys in the social media game. As one of the most-watched lawyers online, Tom has attracted clients to his firm, but it’s not as easy as some people claim.
[03:26] Straight outta law school: Before he even passed the bar exam, Tom had signed a lease on an office to start his own practice. He discusses why he took that risk and how he built his successful firm from scratch with the help of social media.
[08:27] Finding the sweet spot: How did Tom create a successful social media brand with millions of views? “Trial and error,” he says — and a surprising discovery about the value of longer-form YouTube content over TikTok.
[15:08] ‘Edu-tainment’ focused: Want a loyal social media following? Stop focusing on promoting yourself and don’t expect anything in return from your followers, Tom explains.
[19:33] What the algorithm wants: “At the end of the day, Facebook and YouTube — all they care about is making money,” Tom says. He reveals secrets to taking advantage of that business model and getting your videos recommended.
[25:12] Quantity vs. quality: Millions of views are great — but those rarely convert to cases or a loyal following. To find success, you need a healthy balance of both short-form and long-form content, says Tom.
[30:59] The beauty of social: Which is better — pay-to-play social media or organic social media growth? Both can be effective, and both will cost you money or time to get a worthwhile return.
[36:33] One hour a week is not enough: Organic growth that makes you money can be achieved — but you have to put in the work, and hiring people doesn’t work as a shortcut, Tom explains.
[40:56] Learn from influencers, not other lawyers: Tom explains what lawyers can learn about mindset by paying attention to young social media influencers like Mr. Beast.
[44:29] Breaking the fourth wall: This podcast follows a similar mindset as Tom’s on social media: it’s helped us build trust and get cases, but it’s taken a while to get there.
[48:48] ‘Not all it’s cracked up to be’: Tom signs off with a message to listeners: be skeptical of people who say they’re gaining hundreds of cases and making millions from social media.
Connect with Trial Lawyer Nation
☑️ Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram & LinkedIn.
☑️ Subscribe to Trial Lawyer Nation on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and YouTube.
In this popular and award-winning podcast for trial lawyers, noteworthy author, sought-after speaker, and renowned trial lawyer, Michael Cowen explores critical topics distinctive to the legal profession with some of the biggest names in the industry – specifically focused on developing extremely efficient law practices, securing a competitive edge in the industry, and wildly excelling in the courtroom.
Produced and Sponsored by LawPods.
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127 – Lee Hunt – The $66.6 Million Verdict: How Trust and Empathy Shaped the Outcome
When asked how he won a $66.6 million dollar verdict, Lee Hunt attributes much of the victory to the intelligence of the jury — and his ability to forge real, human relationships with his clients.
On this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation, host Michael Cowen talks about trial law with the founder of Hunt Law in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The two discuss Lee’s latest big victory, covering everything from his client’s injuries, liability, and the trust he placed in his jury. They also discuss Lee’s background and his passion for trial work.
“I try very hard never to go, at the very least, more than a year without significant trials,” said Lee. “It is absolutely terrifying, trying a case where you know your client’s future life is at stake. It’s terrifying. But as long as you’re in the mode of it and haven’t been that far removed from it, it’s a fear you know how to deal with.”
For Lee, the trial process is personal. Not only does he dedicate time and energy into every case, he also puts the same effort into knowing his clients on a personal level. He believes clients and lawyers should trust one another, and he credits that trust for much of his success over the course of his lengthy career.
Featured Guest
Name: Lee Hunt
About: Lee Hunt is the founder and lead attorney at Hunt Law. He graduated from the University of Kentucky School of Law, where he received the Order of Coif award. For the past 20 years, Lee has proven himself time and again with a winning track of successful jury awards for injury victims.
Almost above anything else, Lee stresses the value of the relationship between attorney and client. He believes that by the end of a case, the client and lawyer should trust each other, know each other, and genuinely care about each other. Lee wants to know his clients on a personal level and not just as another case number.
His reputation precedes him as a compassionate, caring lawyer, who offers his clients more than just top-notch legal council. He vows to stand with his clients every step of the way and won’t give up until he sees their trial through to the end.
Company: Hunt Law
Connect: LinkedIn
Episode Highlights
[02:06] An intro: Lee tells Michael and listeners some background on the big case he won in New Mexico, which involved a movie set, a production company, a moving crane, and a man pressured into making a life-altering decision.
[07:57] Negligence costs money: Lee discusses how the production team ignored warnings from local New Mexicans about the safest way for his client to move a crane up a mountain.
[12:26] Relatability: One of his strategies with the jury was to make the case relatable for any blue collar worker who has been put in tough situations rather than focusing on the case’s specific location on a movie set.
[14:57] The jury: Lee describes the process of selecting the jury pool and the focus groups that were involved.
[17:36] Comparative fault: From the jump, Lee wanted to really own his client’s culpability in the case, which ultimately played out in their favor. His client was found only 19% at fault.
[22:15] Damages: Lee breaks down how he came up with the different damage costs.
[28:16] Trust the process: Whether to give the jury an exact number in payouts or leave it up to them ultimately comes down to each individual case.
[33:26] Personalization: Lee really puts the time and effort into getting to know his clients, as well as their families. He spent time with his client’s family in California leading up to the case and discussed their worries and concerns.
[37:50] Zoom vs IRL: Lee discusses how New Mexico’s COVID protocols impact trials and how witnesses are perceived by the jury via Zoom versus in person.
[46:53] In his nature: Having grown up an athlete and continuing to be an avid runner, Lee attributes some of his trial success to his natural competitiveness and ability to go the distance.
Connect with Trial Lawyer Nation
☑️ Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram & LinkedIn.
☑️ Subscribe to Trial Lawyer Nation on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and YouTube.
In this popular and award-winning podcast for trial lawyers, noteworthy author, sought-after speaker, and renowned trial lawyer, Michael Cowen explores critical topics distinctive to the legal profession with some of the biggest names in the industry – specifically focused on developing extremely efficient law practices, securing a competitive edge in the industry, and wildly excelling in the courtroom.
Produced and Sponsored by LawPods.
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122 – Malorie Peacock – Growing Your Practice (and Yourself) in 2023
A new year is an excellent opportunity to reflect on your progress and set or reassess goals. That’s the easy part. The challenge comes when your motivation wanes as the year wears on. How does a trial lawyer, with too many tasks to juggle already, set (and stick to) a lofty set of personal and professional goals?
Michael Cowen and Malorie Peacock share their personal and professional goals for 2023, the challenges of sticking to intentions, and what they’re excited about for Cowen Rodriguez Peacock in the new year.
They also remind listeners that achieving goals is a continuous journey. Stumbling isn’t a reason to give up on your goals. Struggling is normal, it’s those that keep pushing and stay ready for the fight that find success.
Join Michael and Malorie for more tips and inspiration for setting achievable goals in 2023, finding balance between your personal and professional lives, and pushing through even when it gets hard.
Featured Guest
Name: Malorie J. Peacock
About: Malorie J. Peacock is a Partner at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock. She was born and raised in San Antonio, Texas and received her J.D. from the University of Houston Law Center. During her time with Cowen Rodriguez Peacock, Malorie has worked on numerous commercial vehicle, trucking, and wrongful death cases. Malorie brings close attention to detail, commitment to finding safety issues and areas of neglect, continued utilization of technology and cutting-edge visuals in cases, along with a sincere passion to help those who have been hurt, to each and every case.
Company: Cowen Rodriguez Peacock
Connect: LinkedIn
Episode Highlights
[01:47] Looking forward to a new year: Michael and Malorie reflect on 2022 and share their enthusiasm for 2023.
[03:50] Setting and achieving personal goals: Michael discusses his personal goals for 2023 and why he believes everyone should set personal goals. He also reflects on the challenges he’s faced in sticking to his intentions.
[08:35] Career-related goals for 2023: Sharing his trial goals, Michael is ready to “get in there and pick some juries and start fighting and hopefully get some verdicts.” Additionally, he plans to continue helping lawyers develop their trial skills, invest more in his New Mexico firm, Begum & Cowen, and focus on the marketing efforts at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock.
[11:17] Finding balance: Last year, Malorie focused on balancing her roles as a new mom and a trial lawyer. This year, “my bigger focus is going to be on making sure that I’m keeping better control of my calendars, that I don’t have back to back weeks when I’m out of town and away from my kid.”
[13:49] Achieving freedom in your busy schedule: Malorie and Michael talk about why it’s essential to develop your people and relinquish some control in order to gain freedom in your schedule.
[20:07] On developing trial skills: From a supportive firm to trial and error, Malorie shares her strategies for developing trial skills over the past 10 years. Michael also contributes his thoughts on finding success through your own style and strategy.
[24:42] Imperfection isn’t the end of the world: lawyers tend to catastrophize situations and worry that they’ll lose a case if they don’t execute the plan flawlessly. Michael reminds listeners that jurors decide cases on major principles or themes — not on minor mistakes.
[26:22] Always be prepared for the fight: “Even the people that have beaten me in trial, they end up paying me more the next time because it was not a fun ride for them. They know that they just got lucky that day or just the facts were on their side that day.”
Connect with Trial Lawyer Nation
☑️ Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram & LinkedIn.
☑️ Subscribe to Trial Lawyer Nation on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and YouTube.
In this popular and award-winning podcast for trial lawyers, noteworthy author, sought-after speaker, and renowned trial lawyer, Michael Cowen explores critical topics distinctive to the legal profession with some of the biggest names in the industry – specifically focused on developing extremely efficient law practices, securing a competitive edge in the industry, and wildly excelling in the courtroom.
Produced and Sponsored by LawPods.
