In this Trial Lawyer Nation podcast, Michael Cowen invites Sari de la Motte back to the show. Sari was one of our top episodes in 2019, so to celebrate 50 episodes and over 100,000 downloads we invited her to be our first returning guest. This show will cover voir dire, opening, the concept of group communication, and how all of these concepts help you form the best jury for your case.
To start things off, Sari shares that her book “From Hostage to Hero: Captivate the Jury by Setting Them Free” is now available for purchase. She reveals how her desire to help trial lawyers understand why jurors “don’t want to be there” (summoned for jury duty), how to deal with this, and then lead them from their “hostageness – their inability to say no to this process” to choosing to be a part of the jury, was how the idea for the book began. Michael adds how initially this reminded him of Carl Bettinger’s book “Twelve Heroes, One Voice” in that both Carl and Sari believe it is important to help your jury become the hero in the case. But after working with Sari, Michael sees how she focuses more on the hostage aspect, shows you how to release the jury panel from this, works to help you understand how important nonverbal communication can be, and gives practical tips to use in the courtroom.
Jumping right in Michael introduces the highly debated topic of “inclusive voir dire” versus “exclusionary voir dire.” He reveals how in the past he has used exclusionary voir dire to find his bad jurors, but understanding Sari’s thoughts on the “hostage mentality” has made him rethink his voir dire technique. Putting it bluntly Sari gives the example of “when you come in with the mindset of ‘who here is out to kill me and how do I kill them first’ that is like a poison and a disease” which then spreads and has your potential jurors wanting to find a way to get out of being selected for your jury. A different mindset where you find the people who want to help you can change this and Sari’s analogy involving hiring a new paralegal and sorting through resumes helps put everything into perspective.
Michael pivots the conversation into how important mindset is for trial lawyers. Sari truly believes “how you’re thinking, affects how you act, which affects your results” and explains how the CTFAR model can help. Michael gives the example of his mindset before his upcoming jury trial and how he is reminding himself “jurors are good people and want to do the right thing and help my client.” This example leads to Sari sharing just how useful the mindset of “the jurors love me” was for a client of hers and how the success of this led to a $10 million dollar jury verdict. And if you are thinking “this is bullshit” Sari explains the communication science behind it and why it works.
Moving from mindset back to voir dire, Sari and Michael discuss how frustrated potential jurors are in the jury selection process. When jurors are not sure why they are there and what is happening it’s critical to get to the point and say what they are in court to do. The next step is to then think about voir dire as a group process and not an individual process, because you are there to create a group and you want a group to reach a verdict in your case not 12 individuals. Michael adds how equally important it is to think about the information you share with the group, the order in which you share it, and how you shape the conversation. The order in which you share your information is crucial and your timing is too, which leads to Sari explaining how jurors will immediately think whatever principle or fact (good or bad) you bring up first is the most important part of your case.
Michael wraps up this episode with a discussion on managing energy. He shares his experiences as a trial lawyer by describing his energy level as a young attorney as being extremely high energy at all times, but then when he tried to slow down he came across as “low energy and passionless,” and now he has learned about “managing energy” to keep the jury engaged and never bored. “Ringing the bell” is an engaging way for attorneys to keep the jury on the edge of their seat and is described as a tool for great storytelling in your opening. However, these techniques are not natural and as Michael points out you have to practice before you do this in front of the jury successfully. Practice should not be confused with scripting an opening, so Sari reminds listeners this is for “the ease and the delivery of information not rehearsing it word for word.”
The podcast is filled with additional great advice ranging from the importance of videotaping yourself, why it is imperative to rehearse saying the dollar amount you want a jury to award, thinking about the principles in your case, how journaling can help you in your mindset, using devils advocate questions, thinking about voir dire and how it connects jurors to you in your opening, and so much more. It’s truly a show any attorney will want to listen to more than once.
BACKGROUND ON SARI DE LA MOTTE
Sari de la Motte is a nationally recognized coach, speaker, and trial consultant. She has trained extensively with an internationally recognized authority in nonverbal communication and is an expert in nonverbal intelligence.
Sari specializes in helping trial attorneys communicate with jurors.
Sari speaks to audiences of a few dozen people to audiences of over a thousand. A sought-after keynote speaker, Sari is often asked to headline conferences across the United States.
Sari consults with trial attorneys all over the country, assisting with trial strategy, voir dire and opening statement. She conducts mock trials in her studio in Portland, Oregon and assists with jury selection on-site.
Sari has spoken for, and works with, several members of the Inner Circle of Advocates, an invitation-only group consisting of the top 100 trial attorneys in the United States. She’s has been a featured columnist for Oregon Trial Lawyer’s Magazine, Sidebar, and has also written for Washington State Association of Justice, Oregon Criminal Defense Attorney, and other legal publications. She provides CLEs for various state association of justices around the country. Because of her unique ability to help attorneys communicate their real selves, she has been dubbed “The Attorney Whisperer.”
Sari is regularly interviewed on TV, radio, and in print, and has appeared in the Atlantic, Huffington Post, The Oregonian, Willamette Week and other publications. Her book, From Hostage to Hero: Captivate the Jury by Setting Them Free was released by Trial Guides in November, 2019.
For more information on Sari de la Motte you can visit http://www.saridlm.com/
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117 – Isabella Santellan – How to Build a Referral-Based Practice
When it comes to personal injury law, the client-firm relationship can be fairly transactional. Most clients aren’t talking about their personal injury cases with their network, and lawyers hope that their clients don’t get injured again and become repeat customers.
But when you have mostly transactional, single-case relationships with clients, how can you gain more business? If your personal injury clients aren’t telling their network about you, who will?
One of the most rewarding methods for gaining more business is referral marketing. Creating longstanding attorney referral relationships gives you a pipeline for more cases, helps you build a reputation, and keeps your firm top of mind in the industry. However, in order to succeed with referral-based marketing, you have to cultivate your relationships and think about what the other person wants.
According to Michael Cowen and the team at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock, you have to give back in order to grow your referral-based business. Take referring attorneys out to lunch or to an event that they would enjoy. Or, give them a gift that’s personalized (and doesn’t have your firm’s name or logo on it). However you decide to show gratitude to your referral partners, it’s important that you create a system to follow up, check in every now and then, and continue nurturing that relationship.
Above all, Michael says that it’s important to create a culture of sharing and respect and keep your promises with referring attorneys. You don’t have to take every case that comes your way, and you can’t guarantee the outcome of a case. You can, however, promise to work hard, keep clients informed, and honor the deal you made.
In episode 117, Isabella Santellan, the Marketing Assistant at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock, asks Michael Cowen all of the essential questions about building a referral-based business and tending to referral relationships. Listen to this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation to hear Michael’s advice on building a referral network and nurturing relationships, turning down referral cases, and simplifying the referral process for your firm.
Featured Guest
Name: Isabella Santellan
About: Isabella Santellan is the Marketing Assistant at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock. She was born and raised in San Antonio, TX and recently received her B.B.A in Management from the University of Texas at San Antonio. As the Marketing Assistant, Isabella runs the firm’s social media, helps plan events, and works to ensure they provide an unforgettable experience to everyone they work with. In her free time, Isabella enjoys traveling, golfing, and spending time with her family.
Company: Cowen Rodriguez Peacock
Connect: LinkedIn
Key Points
Top takeaways from this episode
- Start with the people you already know (and don’t be too picky about cases). It’s difficult to come out of law school and have the reputation and network needed to create a referral-based business. Michael Cowen suggests you get your foot in the door by being hungry, humble, and persistent. Take cases from those who are already in your network and expand your business from there.
- Give your referring attorneys what they want. It’s important to stay top of mind when you’re building a referral-based business. How do you do this? Michael says you need to give back to your referral partners. Take your referring attorneys to lunch or to an event that they might enjoy. You could also give them a call, send a handwritten thank you note, or give them a gift (without your firm’s name or logo on it). However you show gratitude, you have to do so with the other person in mind.
- Nurture your existing referrals. When trying to build a referral-based business, many firms make the mistake of moving on to new referrals without nurturing existing partnerships. But the key is to create longstanding relationships with attorney referrals. It’s much harder to convince someone new to send you the first case, and it’s more fruitful to put effort into the connections that are already sending business your way.
Episode Highlights
[02:40] The foundation of great attorney referral relationships: The key to establishing great referral relationships is nurturing your connections, setting expectations upfront, and making sure you stay top of mind.
[06:05] The three things a referring lawyer or co-counsel wants: Every referring lawyer or co-counsel wants as much money as possible, as quickly as possible, without client complaints. Michael Cowen breaks down the details of how to achieve this.
[07:27] How to keep a referring lawyer’s attention: Michael shares Cowen Rodriguez Peacock’s strategies for keeping a referring lawyer’s attention and making sure they choose you over competitors.
[09:07] Turning down a referral’s case: The number one step to respectfully turn down a referral’s case is to do it swiftly. It’s hard to say no, but it’s better than accepting a case that you’ll later regret. Michael also suggests directing a case to a different firm and offering a possible solution.
[12:00] What you can and can’t guarantee to a referring lawyer: You can’t guarantee the outcome of a case, but you can promise that you’ll work hard and keep the team informed about the details of a case.
[13:13] How a new attorney can build their referral network: Start with people you already know. From there, you can build out your network and run your business on referrals. Especially when starting out, you have to get your foot in the door — you can’t be too picky about cases until you build your reputation.
[18:30] Michael’s experience with referrals: Michael shares his advice for working with referring lawyers and developing your referral process. He also talks about the big mistakes he made early in his career and how you can avoid those same mistakes.
[25:32] Simplifying the referral process: The key to simplifying the process for referring attorneys is to remove the bottlenecks. If you’re busy, put them in contact with someone else on your team who can give them the time and attention they need. For Michael, getting clear on criteria for automatic ‘yeses’ and ‘nos’ can help simplify the process as well.
[26:51] Other methods to gain referrals: Michael explains how his seminar, Big Rig Boot Camp, and his podcast create a referral funnel and generate more business.
[30:43] What to do after you win the referral: It can be tempting to constantly look for new referrals, but Michael advises you to spend more time and effort on your existing referral relationships.
Connect with Trial Lawyer Nation
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☑️ Subscribe to Trial Lawyer Nation on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube.
In this popular and award-winning podcast for trial lawyers, noteworthy author, sought-after speaker, and renowned trial lawyer, Michael Cowen explores critical topics distinctive to the legal profession with some of the biggest names in the industry – specifically focused on developing extremely efficient law practices, securing a competitive edge in the industry, and wildly excelling in the courtroom.
Produced and Sponsored by LawPods.
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125 – Jessica Mogill – Building a World Class Law Firm Culture
Helping attorneys create great company culture is what motivates Jessica Mogill to give her best every day. As Head of Coaching Strategy at Crisp, the nation’s leading law firm growth company, Jessica helps attorneys define and improve their culture.
“Culture is really what drives the experience. And it drives the emotions that you feel,” Jessica says. “And I think that when you have team members who are part of a culture and part of a mission and a vision, your clients do feel that, your referral partners feel that, and they know that there’s something special about this place.”
Jessica offers advice on how to start defining your core values, creating KPIs that are measurable, and onboarding new team members to make them part of your team culture.
She also reflects on some lackluster onboarding experiences that she experienced early on in her career and how those initial interactions soured her perception of those companies from the very beginning.
For professionals working on trucking or company vehicle cases, host Michael Cowen closes the episode with a reminder that he is hosting the upcoming Big Rig Boot Camp on June 16th in San Antonio, Texas.
Featured Guest
Name: Jessica Mogill
About: Jessica Mogill is Head of Coaching Strategy at Crisp, the nation’s premiere law firm growth company. On paper, Jessica is an industrial engineer and got started in her career as an engineer in steel-toed boots and a hard hat.
When the time came for a career shift, she entered Crisp on the ground floor back in 2014. While she originally only planned to advise Crisp for 30 days, almost 10 years later, she’s helped Crisp grow to unimaginable heights. Through her experience growing Crisp, Jessica has developed a unique set of leadership and strategic skills, which she now translates into guidance not only for the internal team but also for Crisp Coach clients.
As the mastermind behind the content and experience of the industry-leading Crisp Coach program, Jessica keeps a pulse on the challenges, opportunities, and knowledge gaps facing the leaders of the nation’s top law firms — and delivers solutions that transform.
Company: Crisp
Connect: LinkedIn
Key Points
Top takeaways from this episode
- Culture starts with core values. Defining your core values is the basis to defining your company culture. It’s also normal for core values to change over time as a company grows or needs different things. Ideally, review your core values annually to confirm they still work for the business.
- Invest in your team. Take a 360 degree view of investing in your team. This can include lunch and learns, training, and social events. At Crisp, there is a culture committee who is responsible for regularly planning events for the team in support of core values.
- Assessments can improve the hiring process. Hiring assessments can be used to enhance your hiring process and align candidates with the work that is best suited for their strengths. Examples of assessments used at Crisp are Kolbe, PRINT, and Wonderlic assessments.
- Setting KPIs helps build high performing firms. KPIs let attorneys objectively review performance. A good KPI measures the root issue that needs to be addressed. Using software for tracking and reporting can keep you accountable but you can start with a simple spreadsheet if you don’t currently have software in place.
Episode Highlights
[05:53] Culture is how stuff gets done: Jessica distills down the definition of culture to be how work gets done — what the standards are, what you’ll tolerate, and what is and is not acceptable at your firm.
[08:19] Deciding on your culture: Jessica believes that every company will have a different culture based on its unique values.
[11:05] Start with core values: Jessica recommends starting with core values when defining your culture. She explains that core values are what you endorse versus what you tolerate.
[14:27] Go back and revisit core values regularly: At Crisp, Jessica reviews the company’s core values on a quarterly basis to ensure they’re still true. At a minimum, she recommends reviewing core values on an annual basis.
[19:33] Finding the right people is the hardest thing: Jessica speaks to how the recruitment process works at Crisp.
[29:42] Data creates high-performing firms: Jessica explains that key performance indicators (KPIs) will make you more objective in evaluating performance — you either hit the target or you don’t.
[36:57] Onboarding is overlooked and undervalued: Jessica walks us through how she approaches approving new positions and onboarding new team members at Crisp to give them the best possible experience.
[40:53] Volunteers, not hostages: Jessica shares the different questions she asks to determine if a person is the right player to have on her team. If your company has outgrown a team member, you need to start with a candid conversation.
[46:00] Communicate with context: Jessica describes how a new team member is essentially jumping on a moving train and lacks the institutional knowledge that other team members have built over time. It’s important to slow down and add context to get the best results.
[57:26] Big Rig Boot Camp: Michael reminds listeners that the Big Rig Boot Camp is coming up on June 16th in San Antonio, Texas.
Connect with Trial Lawyer Nation
☑️ Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram & LinkedIn.
☑️ Subscribe to Trial Lawyer Nation on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and YouTube.
In this popular and award-winning podcast for trial lawyers, noteworthy author, sought-after speaker, and renowned trial lawyer, Michael Cowen explores critical topics distinctive to the legal profession with some of the biggest names in the industry – specifically focused on developing extremely efficient law practices, securing a competitive edge in the industry, and wildly excelling in the courtroom.
Produced and Sponsored by LawPods.
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126 – Malorie Peacock – Unlocking the Power of Telematics: How Distracted Driving Evidence Can Win Big Verdicts
Although technology has improved our quality of life, there are negative consequences, such as the increase in automobile and truck accidents stemming from distracted driving.
Despite the benefits of GPS tracking, specialized brake systems, and virtual logging of hours, there have been issues with falsified data, unassigned drive time, and “phantom drivers” in the trucking industry.
Fortunately, telematics has helped mitigate some of these problems by providing real-time notifications and useful data. However, the proliferation of apps and systems has also increased distractions for drivers, leading to safety risks.
In this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation, Malorie J. Peacock, Partner at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock, and host Michael Cowen discuss the intersection of technology and driving. They examine the pros and cons of technology on the road, how it affects truck drivers, and how telematics data can assist lawyers in automobile and trucking cases.
Featured Guest
Name: Malorie J. Peacock
About: Malorie J. Peacock is a Partner at Cowen Rodriguez Peacock. She was born and raised in San Antonio, Texas and received her J.D. from the University of Houston Law Center. During her time with Cowen Rodriguez Peacock, Malorie has worked on numerous commercial vehicle, trucking, and wrongful death cases. Malorie brings close attention to detail, commitment to finding safety issues and areas of neglect, continued utilization of technology and cutting-edge visuals in cases, along with a sincere passion to help those who have been hurt, to each and every case.
Company: Cowen Rodriguez Peacock
Connect: LinkedIn
Episode Highlights
[2:40] Electronic systems for the road: Malorie provides an overview of the technology available in modern vehicles.
[4:40] Electronic logging devices: In the past, truck drivers would record their hours of service on paper. However, this approach became fully digitized a few years ago and now involves GPS data. Despite its benefits, there are also drawbacks associated with this system.
[7:54] Cheating the system: Despite their apparent reliability, electronic logging devices can be manipulated by truck drivers to falsify their driving hours.
[12:30] A problem of perverse incentives: The trucking industry faces a significant issue with the fabrication of logs, as it benefits both truck drivers and trucking companies.
[14:58] The benefits of telematics: Electronic systems equipped with GPS tracking, known as telematics, can collect and transmit a wide range of data to a central location, providing transparency and enhancing safety measures.
[18:52] Investing in telematics: Telematics offer numerous benefits, including increased safety, reduced insurance claims, video evidence, and economic advantages.
[21:38] Getting the data: Obtaining data from telematics can be a complex process, dependent on the system, procedures, and company. Malorie and Michael delve into the various capabilities and recommend seeking expert assistance.
[26:42] The downside of technology and truck driving: While technological advancements offer benefits, they also pose an increased risk of distraction. Malorie and Michael discuss the potential use of phone data in distracted driving cases and the complexities surrounding data ownership.
[33:26] Distractions from driving apps: Certain applications, such as electronic logging devices, can distract truck drivers, while other job-specific apps may elevate the risk of distraction for delivery drivers and rideshare drivers.
[35:16] Examining driving apps: For those seeking to learn more about designing an app for their needs, Malorie suggests conducting a Google search to access videos exploring specific apps and their creation. She cautions against investing too heavily in apps or data that will not significantly impact their case.
Connect with Trial Lawyer Nation
☑️ Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram & LinkedIn.
☑️ Subscribe to Trial Lawyer Nation on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and YouTube.
In this popular and award-winning podcast for trial lawyers, noteworthy author, sought-after speaker, and renowned trial lawyer, Michael Cowen explores critical topics distinctive to the legal profession with some of the biggest names in the industry – specifically focused on developing extremely efficient law practices, securing a competitive edge in the industry, and wildly excelling in the courtroom.
Produced and Sponsored by LawPods.
