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In this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation, Joshua Karton joins Michael for an introspective discussion on trial psychology and communication.
Joshua’s perspectives on turning off the “act” in a courtroom and getting back to just being (real) is deep and enlightening to listeners at all levels of the industry. The idea of “getting out of your own head” is turned upside down as Joshua challenges attorneys to embrace their role not as one there to protect themselves or their own ego, but rather as someone who is there to defend and protect their client and thereby connect with jurors who could see themselves in the position of the client one day and wanting the same protection.
Joshua shares what he believes allows people to trust through using everything you’ve got and not leaving anything in reserve. Joshua also breaks down the concept of not using negative objectives (such as not wanting to bore the jury, not wanting to piss off the judge, not wanting to embarrass yourself) that can’t be done, and instead committing to objectives that are incompatible with the negative. Michael shares an application of this concept through the evolution of his own practice and how it’s propelled his success and allowed him to alleviate many of the stresses that tend to plague and follow most lawyers.
Joshua expounds on the power of goodness and how the recent political landscape has challenged this approach of connecting with jurors and how deep the need to be right has become a critical hurdle in the courtroom. Michael takes these ideas a step further by discussing how they have affected even the validity of eye witness testimony and the influences of psychodrama sessions. Self-awareness weaves its way throughout the podcast as a main theme that bolsters the success of attorneys in the right frame of mind and holds back others.
The episode concludes with a thoughtful discussion on the lens jurors see things through and how being aware of how you are setting yourself up to be perceived can change dramatically based on a single choice all attorneys have control over.
Background on Joshua Karton:
JOSHUA KARTON, president of Communication Arts, specializes in the application of the communication techniques of theatre/film/television to the art of trial advocacy. He serves on the faculties and develops curriculum for AAJ, the Gerry Spence Trial Lawyer’s College, NITA, the JAG Corps, ABA, NACDL, National Criminal Defense College, Loyola and California Western Schools of Law, state t.l.a.’s and criminal defense associations, as well as maintaining a professional practice of individual case consultation and witness preparation. Thirty years of work in this field culminated in his preparation of the winning oral argument to the United States Supreme Court in Hamdan v Rumsfeld, and the 2016 Lifetime Achievement Award for Excellence in Advocacy from Stetson University College of Law’s Center for Excellence in Advocacy. He co-authored Theater for Trial, released by Trial Guides November 1, 2017.
For more on Joshua Karton visit https://www.trialguides.com/authors/joshua-karton/
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14 – Steven Gursten – Remarkable Customer Service = Extraordinary Law Practice (and Life)
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In this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation, Michael Cowen sits down with Michigan trial lawyer and owner of Michigan Auto Law, along with 3 other law firms, Steven Gursten. As an early adopter of internet legal marketing, Steven has built his firm to become extremely successful in Michigan and is recognized as having the TOP verdict in the state 8 out of the last 12 years, as well as success throughout the country.
Steven recalls in the first 10 years of his practice making it a goal to be a great trial lawyer and have attorneys all over the state refer him cases. To get there, he still recommends lawyers set aside 30 minutes to an hour every day to read and study some area of law. IE: Mondays would be opening statements, Tuesdays might be cross examining, Wednesdays – closings, Thursdays – medicine, and Fridays he wanted to become an expert on the Michigan no-fault law. Even now, Steven utilizes the massive amounts of information he’s accumulated, learned from, and still references. Similarly, Michael recalls and shares a story about learning through the process of proofreading a book another attorney in his office was writing and both agree the continuation of learning after passing the bar is extremely important.
Fast forwarding from 4 attorneys in his first practice to now having 20 attorneys across 4 diverse practices, Michael and Steven discuss the two very different disciplines of running a law firm vs. trying cases, both of which they do very successfully. He also goes into detail on some of the systems he has put in place as a solid foundation, in order to handle the hundreds of cases coming through his different practices, and how much he has embraced different technologies throughout the years. Steven also brings up a great point that in today’s online society, good lawyers will now more than ever be rewarded and bad lawyers will be punished because of Google reviews, Avvo, and other similar review sites, which makes customer service even more important. Meanwhile, those same systems are the ones which help great law firms stay on top of their cases and communicate with their clients to avoid the potential pitfalls easily avoided through systematic communication. Topics such as discussing what not to post on social media or making sure the client is going to their doctors’ appointments can have hundreds of thousands of dollars’ worth of impact on a case when communication is stagnant. Steven goes on to say that the same type of communication can also have a huge impact when it comes to keeping referring attorneys in the loop on shared cases, citing a recent case he referred to Michael in which he was extremely impressed with the follow up.
The conversation shifts when Michael asks Steven how he’s able to have the other 19 attorneys in his office use all of the systems he has in place. Without hesitation, Steven points to the culture of his firm which has guided everyone in the same direction, keeping them on the same page, regarding the inner workings of the practices. He is also quick to point out that establishing this type of culture starts with the ownership of a firm, and regardless of tenure no attorney should ever be above talking with their clients, which is something he tries to instill in each of his attorneys. Steven also shares some of the small things they do to build the culture, such as whenever they receive a great review, they send it out to everyone in the firm to further demonstrate its importance to the firm as a whole and praise those who are walking the talk.
So many great insights on running a successful firm (too many to list in this brief description) come from Steven and Michael throughout this episode, even down to the psychological testing Steven does with everyone in his firm which helps shed light on their ability to deliver a quality customer experience. Steven also shares several thoughts for those who are trying to build their practices, which any attorney can leverage to not only work in their practice but also on their practice.
The conversation transitions to traumatic brain injuries (TBIs) to which Steven again delivers a mountain’s worth of information in rapid succession. Steven is gracious enough to lay out not only the basics of how TBI cases are identified but also the more intricate and subtle ways clients who’ve suffered from a TBI are not only identified but also misunderstood, as Michael asks him questions to bridge the gap between customer service and delicate TBI cases. Steven’s view of customer service is engrained so deeply in him that even during this part of his conversation with Michael, he can’t help but note its importance when working with those who have suffered a TBI. Things like displaying a positive image online in order to be seen as approachable, being cognizant of the tremendous diplomacy it takes to work with clients who have had a TBI, and doing everything in your power to genuinely make things as easy as possible on the them. Perhaps THAT is why he doesn’t encounter many of the problems or issues other attorneys do.
Background on Steven Gursten
Steven Gursten is recognized as one of the nation’s top attorneys handling serious auto accident injury and wrongful death cases, and No-Fault insurance litigation. He is head of Michigan Auto Law, the state’s largest law firm handling car, truck and motorcycle accident cases for more than 50 years.Steven has recovered top-reported verdicts and settlements for car and truck accidents for multiple years, including a $34 million truck accident settlement in 2014 with Ohio co-counsel. In this capacity, Steve was named a Michigan Lawyers Weekly “Lawyer of the Year,” after recovering one of the largest truck accident settlements in Michigan history, as well four other top-reported trial verdicts in previous years.
Steven frequently lectures at legal seminars throughout the country on trial advocacy, trucking litigation, and traumatic brain injury cases. He is the annual moderator and speaker at the “Advanced Motor Vehicle Litigation Seminar,” offered through 360 Advocacy. He is the current President of the Motor Vehicle Trial Lawyers Association and a Past Chair of the American Association for Justice (AAJ) Trucking Litigation Group. Steven is also the chair-elect of the AAJ Traumatic Brain Injury Litigation Group.
In addition, he serves on the executive boards of the Melvin M. Belli Society and represents the state of Michigan in the Taos Trial Lawyers Society, an invitation-only group of distinguished trial attorneys from around the country.
For more info on Steven Gursten visit:
https://www.michiganautolaw.com/firm_profile/attorney-steven-gursten/ -
16 – Devin Herz and Delisi Friday – Legal Marketing that Stands Out
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In this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation, Michael Cowen sits down with Devin Herz, Chief Creative Consultant and Founder of Dynamic Marketing Consultants (DMC), along with the Marketing Director of Cowen | Rodriguez | Peacock, Delisi Friday. Devin describes his passion for marketing from a very young age as he watched his family build a small empire of retail stores taking particular notice of the marketing that made them so successful and later leveraging his creative genes in the graphic arts world.
Devin talks through how his firm prides itself on developing marketing initiatives that stand out from the average industry niched pieces and credits some of their versatility to the fact that they don’t just work with attorneys, which helps to keep things fresh. When asked by Michael about the “silver bullet” of marketing that will bring in all the cases he needs to retire in a matter of years, Devin points out several realistic views that can achieve the same result and mentions if there were such a “bullet,” we’d all likely be retired already.
Seeing as the Trial Lawyer Nation podcast is aimed at personal injury lawyers, Devin is asked about the marketing tactics he’s seen that have worked and not worked in this specific industry to which he gives the example of looking at a website. He describes the differences between a legal firm’s website that is just like all the rest, touting the attorney’s credentials, and how they’re the best and will win every case; versus one that speaks more to the intended audience on a human level while balancing the authority-building credentials, which ultimately projects a much more successful image of that firm. Delisi also points toward delivering a consistent message to your audience, citing a recent referral from an attorney they have been marketing to for a long time whom they are now excited to work with more regularly. “It’s the marathon, not the sprint” as Devin puts it. And Delisi applies this same thought process to the attorneys who advertise with bus wraps and billboards. Michael agrees with both as he recalls the different “slow burn” strategies he’s implemented with DMC over the years that have proven to be successful at varying rates.
Devin describes the prioritization of audiences and the group that most attorneys, and business owners in general, tend to overlook when determining the best ROI for their practice. This parlays nicely with his discussion with Michael for those who may not have a 6-figure marketing budget, where Devin describes the internal marketing processes that are important to have in place and refined BEFORE targeting tons of new clients or cases.
The topic of social media also comes up, as the three discuss the importance of being relatable online in an era where every potential new client does their due diligence before calling a lawyer. Delisi talks about being personable because “someone is going to call you if they feel like they can actually relate to you.” Michael is of the same opinion sharing the importance of not always being about business and Devin eloquently states “social media is called ‘social media’ for a reason.” With social media being a necessity for lawyers, the conversation transitions into the different ways to automate this marketing technique and topics (like politics) to be careful discussing.
Michael and Delisi conclude the episode with a look back at how they started working together with DMC and the trials and tribulations they went through (like the split testing “trial by fire” of having multiple firms market an event), before partnering with DMC in a substantial way to become a valuable extension of their marketing team.
Background on Devin Herz
With 25+ years in marketing, Devin has not only been able to hone the craft of ROI-based marketing but has accrued the knowledge required to build a world class team of consulting and marketing experts. Early on in his professional career, he became the owner of one of Tampa’s most successful event promotion and marketing companies, during which time he was the design and/or print firm for Quiznos, Exit Realty Corporate, Engel & Volkers Corporate, Tampa Bay Lightning, Tampa Bay Super Bowl, over 50 national recording artists, and many other successful individuals and companies. He won Addy Awards for a Dairy Queen marketing campaign and for a brochure for Exeter International, and a Gold Ink Award for design. He is also the Best-Selling Author of “ROI Secrets Revealed,” and continues to share his expertise with the public in books, through blogging, and in interviews.
For more info on Devin Herz visit:
http://dynamicmarketingconsultants.com/about/devin-herz/
Background on Delisi Friday
As the daughter of a trial attorney, Delisi is no stranger to the legal industry and has over 10 years of legal experience. Her strong ties to the legal community, along with a deep understanding and respect of the litigation process, have helped her succeed in her role as Marketing Director for Cowen | Rodriguez | Peacock. With a passion for legal marketing, Delisi is regularly working on branding initiatives, seminar planning, communications, business development, and the podcast Trial Lawyer Nation. She currently serves as Chair of the San Antonio city group and on the southwest regional conference committee for LMA (Legal Marketing Association). With a previous career in television and film, including a degree from the famed AADA (American Academy of Dramatic Arts), Delisi uses the experiences she learned from shows like Friday Night Lights, That’s So Raven, and Saturday Night Live to help the firm effectively tell a client’s story to a jury.
For more info on Delisi Friday visit:
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15 – Phillip Miller – Understanding the Minds of the Jury
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In this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation, Michael Cowen sits down with author, trial consultant, and lawyer Phillip Miller from Nashville, TN.
Oddly enough, Phillip never planned on being a lawyer, being raised as a “military brat” traveling the country with his family that had a background in medicine in the military. It was actually the misfortune of dealing with attorneys in the wake of his father’s unfortunate passing, and subsequently his mother passing 11 months later, which led him to want to go to law school at night while working during the day as a systems analyst. His practice started from humble beginnings to the point where he was paying overhead with no cases and not really knowing anyone in the field. However, his first case, which happened to be a car wreck, helped him to see his future in personal injury law.
Phillip credits his path to early success to his emphasis on education and taking as many CLE courses as possible. So much so that he began to have as much knowledge as those who were teaching the courses and soon after found himself invited to be on faculty with ATLA, which propelled his learning even more. Phillip notes that you don’t just get invited and start teaching. You first start out by writing a paper on the subject matter, which led to him reading more and becoming exposed to other great lawyers, and the cycle continued to help make him a better lawyer too. Michael also recalls a similar feeling of learning more from doing research and writing papers than from going to lectures to hear others speak on a topic.
Phillip discusses his views on learning from others and says that if you only talk with those who are practicing the same things in the same area, you’ll likely turn out to be just like them. Whereas he has sought to talk and learn from people from all over the world, just to get a different perspective on how others try those very same cases and continues to work cases from all four corners of the country and everywhere in between.
When asked by Michael about his approach to cases when he gets brought in, Phillip sites having worked with and picked up methodologies from Rodney Jew, like becoming an expert in taking depositions and the strategy behind them. As a great example of this, Phillip talks through the idea of “jury proof,” which goes beyond just the duty of breach, duty of causation, and damages line of questions and instead delves into other questions that, if aren’t explored, result in a jury filling in their own answers. In other words, thinking beyond the obvious questions and answers that will help to win your case and looking at the case through the lens of a defense juror. Phillip goes on to say that these techniques are great for finding the “land mines” which could potentially damage a case. Then taking it a step further to use focus groups to help prioritize those detrimental pieces of jury proof, which helps to set up cases to be tried in an order geared towards a jury.
Phillip continues to talk through these “land mines” and the idea of working through the “bad” facts of a case to make them irrelevant or immaterial to the case, which sometimes includes just accepting them and moving on. He also notes that this does not always come easy to plaintiff’s lawyers who are used to fighting for their client. Michael also points out (from something Phillip mentioned earlier in the day) that juries tend to make the trials about what you take time to make them about; so when the defense has something bad for your case and you spend time fighting about it, you end up making the focal point of the case more about that item.
The episode concludes with a discussion of the 5 things Phillip has learned about focus groups and juries and their significance to every case. He even gives some great insights on a product liability case involving talcum powder he worked on recently that really drives one of those jury lessons home.
