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In this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation, Joshua Karton joins Michael for an introspective discussion on trial psychology and communication.
Joshua’s perspectives on turning off the “act” in a courtroom and getting back to just being (real) is deep and enlightening to listeners at all levels of the industry. The idea of “getting out of your own head” is turned upside down as Joshua challenges attorneys to embrace their role not as one there to protect themselves or their own ego, but rather as someone who is there to defend and protect their client and thereby connect with jurors who could see themselves in the position of the client one day and wanting the same protection.
Joshua shares what he believes allows people to trust through using everything you’ve got and not leaving anything in reserve. Joshua also breaks down the concept of not using negative objectives (such as not wanting to bore the jury, not wanting to piss off the judge, not wanting to embarrass yourself) that can’t be done, and instead committing to objectives that are incompatible with the negative. Michael shares an application of this concept through the evolution of his own practice and how it’s propelled his success and allowed him to alleviate many of the stresses that tend to plague and follow most lawyers.
Joshua expounds on the power of goodness and how the recent political landscape has challenged this approach of connecting with jurors and how deep the need to be right has become a critical hurdle in the courtroom. Michael takes these ideas a step further by discussing how they have affected even the validity of eye witness testimony and the influences of psychodrama sessions. Self-awareness weaves its way throughout the podcast as a main theme that bolsters the success of attorneys in the right frame of mind and holds back others.
The episode concludes with a thoughtful discussion on the lens jurors see things through and how being aware of how you are setting yourself up to be perceived can change dramatically based on a single choice all attorneys have control over.
Background on Joshua Karton:
JOSHUA KARTON, president of Communication Arts, specializes in the application of the communication techniques of theatre/film/television to the art of trial advocacy. He serves on the faculties and develops curriculum for AAJ, the Gerry Spence Trial Lawyer’s College, NITA, the JAG Corps, ABA, NACDL, National Criminal Defense College, Loyola and California Western Schools of Law, state t.l.a.’s and criminal defense associations, as well as maintaining a professional practice of individual case consultation and witness preparation. Thirty years of work in this field culminated in his preparation of the winning oral argument to the United States Supreme Court in Hamdan v Rumsfeld, and the 2016 Lifetime Achievement Award for Excellence in Advocacy from Stetson University College of Law’s Center for Excellence in Advocacy. He co-authored Theater for Trial, released by Trial Guides November 1, 2017.
For more on Joshua Karton visit https://www.trialguides.com/authors/joshua-karton/
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05 – Randi McGinn – A Narrative for Winning Juries and Cases
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In this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation, Michael Cowen sits down with trial attorney and prominent legal industry speaker, Randi McGinn of McGinn, Montoya, Love & Curry P.A.
From the very beginning of their conversation, Randi delivers compelling insights on the one thing that still unites people, as well as influences in our decision-making process as humans. She also shares what engrains our decisions moving forward in trials, as well as in “real life” more times than not, regardless of what future evidence is acknowledged and/or presented. More importantly is the necessity for trial lawyers to know and understand this concept in order to be able to implement it in a trial situation from the very beginning of a trial to impact a jury’s decision. Going even a step further, Randi relates this tactic to putting the jury in the “zone of danger” in order to make things more relatable to them through their own eyes versus their own logical view of how a scenario would likely play out. Truly a fascinating viewpoint and provocative example that is given, one that all lawyers should take note of.
Once the concept is revealed, Randi does a deep dive on knowing how to apply it, to which Randi describes her own firm’s use of focus groups in determining the best strategies toward figuring out the best way to leverage the information a trial attorney has at their disposal. Funny enough, some of their best ideas come from “ordinary people” seeing as attorneys can tend to become narrow minded when approaching another case. Fortunately, Randi’s approach is less like classical music where you have rules to follow and more like jazz where there are many ways to approach the narrative of a case. Having said that, Randi also notes that sometimes the work equated to a case is 200 – 300 hours outside the courtroom for every 1 hour inside the courtroom, which is part of what makes her and her firm so good at what they do.
Michael and Randi expose the dirty little tricks defense attorneys play against plaintiff attorneys and the “little guys” they represent, as it’s important to note that many jurors may not have any concept of how difficult that fight may be. Furthermore is the uphill battle regarding the misconception most have of people getting hurt and thinking “oh goodie, I have a lawsuit” while truth be told, the process to recovery is not an easy one, and in some cases is impossible.
The episode wraps up with a discussion aimed specifically at female attorneys entering the field and advice from Randi on how best to take things on, as well as for the men in the industry who want to empower women to help make the world a better place. Both Michael and Randi have some amazing insights to share which are beneficial regardless of gender or tenure.
Background on Randi McGinn
Randi McGinn is the author of “Changing Laws, Saving Lives: How to Take on Corporate Giants and Win,” available through Trial Guides at: http://www.trialguides.com/book/changing-laws-saving-lives/ Trial Lawyer Nation listeners can receive a $10 discount on the book by using the code LAWSLIVES10.
She is one of the country’s leading trial lawyers, having tried over 130 cases. The first woman president of the Inner Circle (100 best trial lawyers in the US), she is known for her creativity in the courtroom and use of demonstrative evidence to visualize opening, direct, cross-examination and closing argument. She has destroyed adverse witnesses by leaving a pretentious Beverly Hills doctor standing in front of the jury covered with post-its and clutching a grapefruit to his chest, by grilling a government snitch until he threw up and by exposing the fact that a world-renowned polygraph expert had been polygraphing his own sperm cells in the dead of night. In a particularly hard won police shooting case, the local SWAT cops once put her face on their Christmas pinata and took turns whacking it with a big stick.
She recently was appointed as a special prosecutor and tried the first murder prosecution in over 50 years of an Albuquerque police officer for an on the job shooting.
She started her career by giving birth to her daughter Heather, now age 37, the day before the 3-day bar examination.
Senior partner in a 5 woman, 2 man law firm in Albuquerque, New Mexico; double listed in criminal and civil litigation in Best Lawyers in America; International Academy of Trial Lawyers fellow; past AAJ Governor; past president of the New Mexico Trial Lawyers’ Association; NACDL board member, NITA-NCDC-UNM adjunct instructor.
For more info on Randi McGinn visit https://www.mcginnlaw.com/About-Us/Randi-McGinn.shtml
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19 – Malorie Peacock – Trial Tips: Voir Dire, Visuals, and Technology
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Every month, our podcast receives questions from our listeners (which we love by the way, keep them coming) and we take the time to respond to each individually. After 8 months of being on the air, we thought it might be fun and valuable to dedicate an episode to reflect and respond to some of these questions in a new series we’re calling “TLN Table Talk.” In this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation, sought-after trial lawyer and fellow partner at Cowen | Rodriguez | Peacock, Malorie Peacock, flips the script and puts Michael in the “hot seat” for an open discussion to answers questions from our listeners.
Malorie digs right in with a note from a listener that asks – “Knowing that we all need to try more cases to get better, and sometimes you just can’t get to trial for one reason or another, how do you practice for the big moment of going to trial?” Michael reveals how he personally prepares for each trial and his approach toward different types of cases and jurors, along with his thoughts on prepared scripts. He goes on to share outstanding insights about planning and practicing for voir dire, where you don’t know what the jury panel is going to say; and allowing the truth to be acknowledged without letting it throw you off your intended path. Interestingly enough, Michael’s use of pizza and beer to get a deeper understanding of a case, while simple in practice, can also be incredibly useful in the courtroom. Michael also opens up about his rekindled respect for inclusive voir dire with a recent example of a case that turned a $125k offer into a $1.25M verdict, seemingly built in voir dire, before any evidence was ever discussed.
From there, Malorie talks with Michael about the firm’s strategy in trying most cases in pairs and asks him why he believes it’s better. His answer is perhaps not what you might expect, and the discussion shifts toward courtroom perceptions. Michael and Malorie both agree that every perception matters: from how you dress, to how you interact with your staff, to how people see you drive away in the parking lot. The same goes for your client too! Both also agree that understanding visual communication is extremely important as a trial lawyer.
Trial technology seems to be a hot topic for our listeners with all kinds of questions around what types we use, how we utilize them, and the thoughts around why we use them (or not). Michael is quick to point out that we all need to remember the purpose of the tech and the need to tailor the tech to the case, so you don’t look too slick when the other side brings in a manila folder and a legal pad. He does recommend that if the courtroom, and your budget, allows, there are some specific pieces of technology that are far better in his opinion in helping jurors understand pieces of evidence, so long as you are comfortable with it and prepared to proceed when it doesn’t work.
Michael and Malorie close the conversation in talking through strategies on figuring out how much money to ask a jury for and how to actually ask for it, the details of which you’ll have to listen to learn. Trial Lawyer Nation plans to do more “Table Talks” in the future as this podcast has always been about inclusive learning for all in our industry, which includes learning from each other! Please keep submitting your questions, comments, and topic suggestions to podcast@triallawyernation.com; and be sure to like, share, and subscribe to get the latest from the Trial Lawyer Nation podcast!
For more information about Michael Cowen, go here.
For more information about Malorie Peacock, go here.
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16 – Devin Herz and Delisi Friday – Legal Marketing that Stands Out
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In this episode of Trial Lawyer Nation, Michael Cowen sits down with Devin Herz, Chief Creative Consultant and Founder of Dynamic Marketing Consultants (DMC), along with the Marketing Director of Cowen | Rodriguez | Peacock, Delisi Friday. Devin describes his passion for marketing from a very young age as he watched his family build a small empire of retail stores taking particular notice of the marketing that made them so successful and later leveraging his creative genes and marketing strategies to help businesses multiply their revenues.
Devin talks through how his firm prides itself on developing marketing initiatives that stand out from the average industry niched pieces and credits some of their versatility to the fact that they don’t just work with attorneys, which helps to keep things fresh. When asked by Michael about the “silver bullet” of marketing that will bring in all the cases he needs to retire in a matter of years, Devin points out several realistic views that can achieve the same result and mentions if there were such a “bullet,” we’d all likely be retired already.
Seeing as the Trial Lawyer Nation podcast is aimed at personal injury lawyers, Devin is asked about the marketing tactics he’s seen that have worked and not worked in this specific industry to which he gives the example of looking at a website. He describes the differences between a legal firm’s website that is just like all the rest, touting the attorney’s credentials, and how they’re the best and will win every case; versus one that speaks more to the intended audience on a human level while balancing the authority-building credentials, which ultimately projects a much more successful image of that firm. Delisi also points toward delivering a consistent message to your audience, citing a recent referral from an attorney they have been marketing to for a long time whom they are now excited to work with more regularly. “It’s the marathon, not the sprint” as Devin puts it. And Delisi applies this same thought process to the attorneys who advertise with bus wraps and billboards. Michael agrees with both as he recalls the different “slow burn” strategies he’s implemented with Dynamic Marketing Consultants over the years that have proven to be successful at varying rates.
Devin describes the prioritization of audiences and the group that most attorneys, and business owners in general, tend to overlook when determining the best ROI for their practice. This parlays nicely with his discussion with Michael for those who may not have a 6-figure marketing budget, where Devin describes the internal marketing processes that are important to have in place and refined BEFORE targeting tons of new clients or cases.
The topic of social media also comes up, as the three discuss the importance of being relatable online in an era where every potential new client does their due diligence before calling a lawyer. Delisi talks about being personable because “someone is going to call you if they feel like they can actually relate to you.” Michael is of the same opinion sharing the importance of not always being about business and Devin eloquently states “social media is called ‘social media’ for a reason.” With social media being a necessity for lawyers, the conversation transitions into the different ways to automate this marketing technique and topics (like politics) to be careful discussing.
Michael and Delisi conclude the episode with a look back at how they started working together with DMC and the trials and tribulations they went through (like the split testing “trial by fire” of having multiple firms market an event), before partnering with DMC in a substantial way to become a valuable extension of their marketing team.
Background on Devin Herz
With 25+ years in marketing, Devin has not only been able to hone the craft of ROI-based marketing but has accrued the knowledge required to build a world class team of consulting and marketing experts. Early on in his professional career, he became the owner of one of Tampa’s most successful event promotion and marketing companies, during which time he was the design and/or print firm for Quiznos, Exit Realty Corporate, Engel & Volkers Corporate, Tampa Bay Lightning, Tampa Bay Super Bowl, over 50 national recording artists, and many other successful individuals and companies. He won Addy Awards for a Dairy Queen marketing campaign and for a brochure for Exeter International, and a Gold Ink Award for design. He is also the Best-Selling Author of “ROI Secrets Revealed,” and continues to share his expertise with the public in books, through blogging, and in interviews.
Book a one-on-one call with Devin:
http://dynamicmarketingconsultants.com/schedule
Background on Delisi Friday
As the daughter of a trial attorney, Delisi is no stranger to the legal industry and has over 10 years of legal experience. Her strong ties to the legal community, along with a deep understanding and respect of the litigation process, have helped her succeed in her role as Marketing Director for Cowen | Rodriguez | Peacock. With a passion for legal marketing, Delisi is regularly working on branding initiatives, seminar planning, communications, business development, and the podcast Trial Lawyer Nation. She currently serves as Chair of the San Antonio city group and on the southwest regional conference committee for LMA (Legal Marketing Association). With a previous career in television and film, including a degree from the famed AADA (American Academy of Dramatic Arts), Delisi uses the experiences she learned from shows like Friday Night Lights, That’s So Raven, and Saturday Night Live to help the firm effectively tell a client’s story to a jury.
For more info on Delisi Friday visit:
