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54 – Michael O’Neill – Delivering Justice: From UPS Defense Attorney to Plaintiff Trial Lawyer

By Michael Cowen — 3 years ago

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In this Trial Lawyer Nation podcast, Michael Cowen sits down with former defense attorney for UPS and current plaintiff attorney, Michael O’Neill. This show covers an array of topics, including the defense’s advantages in catastrophic injury cases, why O’Neill switched sides of the courtroom (and why it made him such a good plaintiff attorney), what companies can’t defend against, and why referring out cases can make you more money.

The episode kicks off with Cowen asking O’Neill why large companies use the same defense firm for cases around the country. O’Neill says the lawyer needs to know a very specific field, know the company well, and have a consistent defense. O’Neill would receive a call in the middle of the night or on a weekend and would need to travel immediately to the scene of a crash. UPS would refer to this as “boots on the ground.” He emphasizes that marshalling evidence while it’s fresh is pertinent to the success of any case. O’Neill shares a story of a time where he went to the scene and pointed out a detail the police missed which would have hurt their case on liability. He was also there while the police were writing their reports and describes how he could influence what was written. Cowen and O’Neill discuss the defense’s role in shaping the narrative of the case from the start, the role of psychology with the first responders, the defense’s advantage in this, and what plaintiff lawyers CAN (but most DON’T) do to combat this.

Cowen then asks what everyone’s thinking; why did O’Neill switch to the plaintiff’s side? O’Neill replies that the curiosity has always been there. He then describes a scenario, not uncommon to him, where he had a defense verdict on a case he believed “that’s an easy 7-figure case that should have been won and we zeroed them.”

The conversation shifts to what companies CAN’T defend. Both agree on exposing poor training programs as the key to winning “nuclear verdicts” in commercial vehicle and trucking cases. They discuss this and other factors which make the case about the 3 months before, as opposed to the 5 seconds before the crash. O’Neill then brings up a defense trucking podcast by FreightWaves which recently discussed the defense’s fear of “the second lawyer” and the impact of referral attorneys on the insurance industry. As a “second lawyer” himself, Cowen shares a recent example of an insurance company who learned once he became involved all prior negotiations at a much lower number were out the window.

One of the most important details for a successful catastrophic injury lawyer to accomplish is to make the case about the company, not the individual. Cowen shares a story of a case where the CMV driver was high on meth at the time of the accident. The case against the driver was already strong, but when asked by a colleague why he was working so hard on the case Cowen replied, “It doesn’t take much money to teach a meth head a lesson. It needs to be about the company and what it takes to teach the company a lesson.” O’Neill echoes this with another great example of a strong case that he made even stronger by putting in the work.

O’Neill and Cowen then praise trucking trial lawyer Joe Fried and how instrumental he has been on creating the current “abundance mentality” of the Academy of Truck Accident Attorneys (ATAA). The ATAA abundance mentality encompasses the idea that there are plenty of trucking cases to go around, and we all perform better when we share information and establish good law. “The tide raises good ships,” O’Neill eloquently responds. When comparing this to the defense bar, O’Neill says the difference is night and day. Information on the defense side is kept from one another because there are fewer clients and essentially everyone can be your competition. He goes as far as to say that the way the plaintiff’s bar shares information “terrifies the defense.”

They then move into a discussion on the transition process from defense to plaintiff lawyer. Cowen asks O’Neill what it has been like changing into a role where he works at a firm that now funds cases and isn’t paid by the hour. O’Neill discusses some transitional difficulties, but insists he has been made confident through his experiences as a defense attorney, stating, “You start giving big checks to mediocre lawyers and you start to wonder, why am I not on the other end of this conversation?” Cowen then describes his history of funding cases by sharing his expertise in finance management and smart firm growth.

The conversation concludes with a discussion on package car cases- What makes them different from trucking cases? Why can they be so complicated? O’Neill highlights the necessity for specialized knowledge in this area, stating, “There’s a million ways to skin a cat, but you have to know how to skin the cat.” Because shipping companies usually work with subcontractors as delivery drivers, it can be difficult to make the case about the company. O’Neill shares valuable insight into how he’s overcome this barrier.

This podcast also covers efficient docket size, the order of your depositions, networking, direct to public marketing versus B2B marketing, and much more.

 

ABOUT THE GUEST

A northeastern Pennsylvania native, Attorney Michael O’Neill handles catastrophic injury litigation, including representing those who were in motor vehicle and truck accidents, medical malpractice, product liability, and premises liability. A former senior litigation associate at DLA Piper LLP, and a founder partner at a national litigation boutique law firm, O’Neill has served as first chair trial attorney in over 25 jury trials, or their equivalent, in ten different states. All of these complex litigation matters involved disputes of seven figures or more and resulted in successful verdicts or settlements.

With more than 20 years of complex litigation experience, O’Neill has appeared multiple times on NBC-10 television in Philadelphia, numerous radio broadcasts and national podcasts as a legal expert and to discuss cases he is handling on behalf of catastrophically injured people.

O’Neill is admitted to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, Supreme Court of New Jersey, and the Supreme Court of New York, as well as the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, Middle District of Pennsylvania, Western District of Pennsylvania, District of New Jersey, and the Northern District of Texas.

O’Neill also has a distinguished military service record as a veteran of the United States Army. He is an honors graduate of the U.S. Army Officer Candidate School and the U.S. Army Aviation and Warfighting Center, was commissioned as a second lieutenant and trained to fly helicopters for the Army and the Pennsylvania National Guard. He remained active in the National Guard until 2005 and is a member of the First Troop Philadelphia City Cavalry, one of the oldest recognized organizations in the United States military.

O’Neill earned his Bachelor of Arts degree at the University of Scranton and received his Juris Doctor from the Villanova University School of Law in 1998. While at Villanova, he focused on litigation-related curriculum and after graduation taught trial advocacy for seven years as an adjunct professor. A lifelong athlete, he played collegiate football and baseball and was inducted into the Wayne/Pike County Area Sports Hall of Fame in 2018. He also has held a civilian aviation license for more than 30 years.

Michael O’Neill joined the offices of Fellerman & Ciarimboli in Philadelphia on March 1st.. He can be reached by phone at (215)776-5070 or by email at mjo@fclawpc.com.

 

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47 – Delisi Friday – Analyzing Your Marketing Strategies for the Year

By Michael Cowen — 3 years ago

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In this Trial Lawyer Nation podcast, Michael Cowen sits down with his in-house Director of Marketing and Business Development, Delisi Friday, for another Table Talk episode. This show focuses specifically on an inside look at what they’re doing to market their law firm, why it’s important to analyze their efforts every year, and how they determine when to pivot on specific marketing strategies.

Delisi starts the conversation describing why an annual review of their firm’s marketing is imperative and how it gives them a chance to see what’s working and what’s not. It also allows their team to see things early enough to allow for them to pivot in order to make something work better. Michael adds that they have also been known to double down on what’s working, in order to accelerate their success in receiving more cases. Although, the “sunk cost fallacy” occasionally gets in the way of making changes once you’ve put time, and money into an effort and continue with it even though (if it’s not working) you might be better off spending your time on something else. He uses their firm magazine as an example of this. “People tell us that it’s great branding all the time, but it doesn’t bring in big cases” Michael states. They detail how this marketing strategy costs $5,000 every month in printing and mailing, not to mention the time (another associated cost) spent on writing and designing. Which is why Michael states the money on this strategy can be much better, and successfully, spent in other ways benefitting their top referral attorneys. He also suggests that sometimes you need to try 10 things to find the 1 or 2 things that do work for your firm. “We gave it a good shot,” Delisi concludes.

The conversation shifts to a discussion on segmentation and how Delisi and Michael determine each segment and the strategies, and marketing costs, involved at each level. Delisi discusses her system for reviewing their mailing list each month to ensure those who are receiving their marketing are more likely to refer a case and thereby keep marketing costs down. This also goes to the point of spending more marketing efforts on existing relationships versus continuously dripping smaller efforts on those you’re trying to establish a relationship with, in hopes that someday they’ll start referring cases. Michael leans toward a 2 year rule, where if an attorney they are targeting hasn’t engaged with them in 24 months, then they stop using the more expensive types of marketing and simply let them continue receiving their emails, which costs almost nothing for them. Michael also describes some of the more elaborate ways they have fostered their existing relationships while finding the most important marketing tactic to keep in mind, is just to spend time with people and keep building relationships.

Continuing the topic of referral attorneys, Delisi brings up an important note about the customer experience being more than just the experience of the client at the center of the case. It goes to the deeper point of nurturing the relationships they have with their referral attorneys and not overlooking the experience they provide to them. Michael explains some of the hesitancies he’s heard from referral partners coming from “other herds” regarding cases being referred out and then having a lack of communication until a check was received or a problem arises in the case, or worse, a call to them describing the need to change the deal splitting fees. Michael and Delisi are both adamant those types of scenarios would never happen at their firm and Michael firmly disagrees with such tactics. Leading Delisi to say “your integrity is worth more than that.” They go on to discuss how their firm avoids surprises for their referring attorneys, the communication strategies they follow to keep everyone involved in each referred case, and why their relationships “truly are a partnership.”

One of the more interesting shifts in the Cowen | Rodriguez | Peacock marketing this last year was when they decided to have Delisi manage the intake department and marketing department. Delisi explains why she has been absolutely delighted by the change and how it has given her a more holistic view of their marketing efforts by not just seeing the number of cases referred, but also the value of those cases and other extremely useful insights to help her guide future marketing efforts. She describes how the relationships with the referring attorneys and their staff has grown after this decision and allows her a chance to help with each new case as it comes into the firm.

Michael segues from Delisi’s internal job of marketing to some external marketing factors and how some past experiences have led to the decisions they are making today. Delisi points out how Michael’s decision to no longer handle small auto cases which tend to settle in pre-lit has changed their marketing and also the success of their firm, but “it didn’t happen overnight.” Next, Michael discusses how they previously used a marketing firm that only did legal marketing but found their track record quickly became “triple the price for half the results.” Today, they use a marketing company with only a few legal clients, which they see as a benefit to them. But Michael adds this decision also leads to some disconnect on messaging, because the B2B marketing tactics used with attorneys is delicate and not a hard sell like other industries. They’ve also learned the same lesson by hiring a local graphic designer to help with visuals for cases, which again helps to get the perspective of someone who does not have a background in the legal world and can help to design trial visuals universally understood.

The TLN Table Talk podcast comes full circle to a discussion on why it is important to analyze, measure, and decide on the next year’s marketing efforts before the new year begins. Michael describes their process of looking at ROI (return on investment) and how it drives much of his decision-making process as well as how it is slightly different for their firm, being that they do not market direct to consumers and focus all of their efforts on referral attorneys. Delisi ends by stating why it is important for attorneys to make time for marketing no matter how busy they are, why consistency can help during those slow business months, and shares a Henry Ford quote for everyone to keep in mind when considering a reduction of their marketing budget.

Trial Lawyer Nation plans to do more “Table Talks” in the future as this podcast has always been about inclusive learning for all in our industry, which includes learning from each other! Please keep submitting your questions, comments, and topic suggestions to podcast@triallawyernation.com; and be sure to join our “Trial Lawyer Nation – Insider’s Circle” group on Facebook to privately interact with the show!